Iltis Body Rotisserie

[Stuart Fedak]

That time of the year when I start dreaming of all the great projects I could do, IF I had the $$$ .........

I keep on looking at references on body rotisserie designs, that would work for an Iltis sized body.

Here are some samples.........

http://www.mts.net/~hpokrant/Restora...Rotisserie.htm
http://www.theroto2000.com/
http://www.whirlyjig.com/Default.htm
http://www.accessiblesystems.com/
http://www.autotwirler.com/
http://redwingsteelworksplans.com/ca...hotos-samples/
http://www.britishv8.org/Articles/Au...Rotisserie.htm
http://www.harwoodperformance.bizlan...itorial_20.htm
http://home.comcast.net/~bossbill/rotisserie/

So the question is, does anyone have experience building a body rotisserie that would work for the Iltis and other smaller vehicles? I keep on looking at Princess Auto shop crane lifts, perhaps using one at each end, modifying the lift end. That would give the ability to lower and raise the body using the hydrolic cyclinder on the shop cranes at both ends.

Any ideas or pictures............

Cheers!

Stuart

[Stuart Fedak]

Gord sent me the following pictures of his Iltis rotisserie.

He has restored several Iltis, both NOS bodies and salvage units. More pictures will follow in the next message.

Cheers!

[Stuart Fedak]

More pictures from Gord..........

Keep those pictures coming.......

Cheers!
Stuart

[Bob Carriere]

.....fabricating, welding, etc.... let us know....

Boob

[Stuart Fedak]

Originally Posted by Stuart Fedak

More pictures from Gord..........

Keep those pictures coming.......

Cheers!
Stuart

More from Gord.........

[Stuart Fedak]

Originally Posted by Stuart Fedak

More from Gord.........

Some more pictures from Gord...........

Here are some comments from Gord on his project...
***************************
Stuart

Here is the reason for building a unit to work on an Iltis body, I have two to rebuild yet. One has a complete floor pan, battery tray, both sides and a rear panel to be installed and the other needs both sides and a rear panel. I also have a tractor with a fork lift attachment, a mig welder and a stick welder which makes every thing doable. This is the collection with the rear left four are frame up restorations, rear right four are the resource centre or projects in waiting.

The front row three left, three right are ASU London tender Iltises and the centre iltis was bought at the first NTA auction the the ilises were sold at september 2005.

The box tubing that the front fenders sit on is an engineering bo-bo I should have used angle iron as on the rear cross piece. You will see that a piece of 2X3 wood spacer is used.

I used an angle iron cross piece on the rear and the rubber mounts work perfectly to mount the body. That is until I tried to put a body on the tubing at the front and the threads are to short too reach through. Should have used angle iron.

The rise above the frame rails was easy to determine because I could measure off the pallet the body was shipped on and the mounting holes on the frame gave a reference to length and width. I now have unit that can be easily copied.

The frame off the stand is 2X5 heavy wall box tubing that I got as scrap metal and makes a solid base unit.

The axle that the frame rotates on is two inch heavy wall pipe fitted through both walls of the upright and welded in place. The carrier is a piece of two and a half inch pipe with heavy channel irons welded to it and gusseted for rigidity.

The "Ships Wheel" is flat iron and a piece of re-enforcing steel to give a hand hold for rotating the unit and a lock pin for holding in place. The number of holes drilled in the round plate needs to be increased by at least double.

This gives a better idea of how the end units are built.

The idea was to make up the frame and hope that the imbalance of off centre could be managed with the locking pin and counter weighting if workable. The engineering Gods where looking over me the day I did this and it is remarkably and well balanced.

I will cut the bottom of the tubing the open where the fenders mount just enough that can get a nut welded to where the body mount should be. Then all eight frame mounting points will carry the body with the proper body mounts and body panels the can be aligned and positioned for welding.

The cradle that carries the body is a standard 2X2X .125 wall steel tubing and is more than adequate to carry the body but gives good strength for moving with the fork lift.

The colour is 34094 and is was bought through Sky Harbour Refinishers who paint air plaines. I'd rather pay too much for a good job than too much for a poor job.

**************************
Cheers!
Stuart

[Bob Carriere]

Gord.... if the Gods are not so kind next time and the balance is off..... consider adding a large counter weight similar to the pan box brake..... shop around for old weight lifting cast iron disc at flea markets or make your own in concrete........ old tractor weights would also be practical and flexible to adjust...... bet you got some of those around....

Now if you had learned how to weld up side down...lying on your back you .. would not have needed the BBQ device.....hihihi

I am considering building one when I will rebuild my cargo box..... but will need to instal a high lift bottle jack (all ready have one) at each end to adjust for height ...raise...spin around...lower to work on...raise spin around....etc.... brush with BBQ sauce.....

Boob

[Gordon Yeo]

Bob

I had made the ends of the carriage frame with the two pieces of 2X2 extra long with the thought that I might need weight for counter balanceing the body. The design incorperated the worst case scenario, I have access to lots of tractor weights and they would have been easy too attach.

I might have the MGB down on its wheels this summer and that rotisserie might work to hold a cargo box. That frame is on wheels, which would be nice.

Gord

[Bob Carriere]

... your rotisserie may be available during the farming season....?

short of being lucky..... have you found a practical way of fining the center of gravity for a body or cargo box.....

.... I had though of balancing the cargo box... lenght wise on a 2x2 tubing and drawing a vertical center line on the box head piece of the box....

Than standing it on its side and repeat the process....... where the two lines intersect should be a C.G.... I think..? so the head piece would have two lines crossing..... might have to add a piece of sheet metal at the tailgate....

Boob

PS.... 3 ton high rise bottle jacks are on sale at PA next week.....hihihi

[maple_leaf_eh]

If the rotisserie is on a hay wagon, how do you start the fire?

Clever idea. It makes me think about my Jeep underside more and more. You've done a bad thing to my subconscious.

[Stuart Fedak]

Originally Posted by Bob Carriere

PS.... 3 ton high rise bottle jacks are on sale at PA next week.....hihihi

BoB: I think Princess Auto must send you a personal notice of all upcoming sales......

Princess Auto:
3 Ton Long Stroke Hydraulic Jack
SKU 1010019
Extended length: 44 inches
Lift length: 19.5 inches
Retracted Length 24.5 inches
Regular price: $79.99
Sale price: $39.9

Looks like a good way to be able to adjust the lift point and centre the body to find the centre of gravity. One of the links I had at the start of the thread shows a good example of using an adjustable threaded crank to raise and lower the lift point. Well worth looking at the video.

Bob: What is the address and phone number of of the steel service centre you use in Ottawa? I have used Loucon Metal, but they are only open during the week, and are closed on the weekends.
http://www.louconmetal.com/
I would like to find someone that would cut my order to length, and have it ready for pick-up.

Cheers!
Stuart

[Grant Bowker]

Keep in mind that the hydraulic jacks are single acting, in other words they push beautifully but do a poor job resisting being pulled.
For the turning mechanism you might want to look at a worm gear. Worm gears have a quite high reduction ratio and don't generally drive back from the load, only from the input to the worm. Of course, if the load is perfectly balanced it should only need enough force to overcome the friction in the support........

[Gordon Yeo]

One purpose built rotisserie I saw on the internet was the pinnacle of engineering and is what got me started on wanting one. It was for the M151 MUTT and was probably designed for the military. It would mount the whole vehicle, complete with wheels. It has a worm gear with hand crank to rotate the vehicle 360 degrees and had a full base frame with castor wheels. The ends had a series of mounting points to allow the centre of gravity too be relocated as the weight of the mounted vehicle varied. That was a rotisserie!
I had a silo unloader winch that I was thinking of using for the rotating mechanism. I opted for simple and managed to guess close enough to the centre balance point that was quite manageable.
Bob, I would think that you should be able reason out where a box would balance. It's just basic physics. Put half the steel on top and half on the bottom. I know that sounds glib, but just sit and look at what you want mounted. Take your time, consult with your engineering team, and it will probably be close.

Gord

[Stuart Fedak]

Originally Posted by Grant Bowker

Keep in mind that the hydraulic jacks are single acting, in other words they push beautifully but do a poor job resisting being pulled.
For the turning mechanism you might want to look at a worm gear. Worm gears have a quite high reduction ratio and don't generally drive back from the load, only from the input to the worm. Of course, if the load is perfectly balanced it should only need enough force to overcome the friction in the support........

Grant: Thanks for the warning. The intent of the Hydraulic jack is only to move the mechanism up and down, not from side to side. If you look at the links, you see one design, where the sole function of the jack is to raise and lower the main arm. Then they use a pipe, inside another pipe as the section that rotates for the turning mechanism. Most can be turned by hand.

For example:
http://www.autotwirler.us/catalog/pr...products_id=29

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sc4kV...embedded#at=25

One more link:
http://www.theroto2000.com/Roto_gallery.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNWwt...layer_embedded

So, do we make one?

I keep on looking at the Princess Auto shop cranes. I think they could be used and modified, It provides a real stable base, a hydraulic jack, wheels, etc.. just need to modify the horizontal post and make the rotation system.

Do I have you interested yet?

Cheers!
Stuart

[Bob Carriere]

Vertical bottle jack are single action much like a regular jack...... by playing carefully with the release valve one should be able to lower the assembly safely...... but to be safe I would drill holes through the vertical tubing and insert a 5/8 standard hitch pin..... at worst it would only fall to the next hole/pin.... spaced every 4 to 6 inches.....

The whole idea of the vertical jack is to lift a wide assembly so it can turn 180 degrees and not touch the bottom rail(s).... and then lowered to a suitable working level......

My preference would be a worm drive......(mix and match between an auto tranny ring gear and a trailer winch worm) .... dual bottom rail... mounted on inflatable tires to negotiate loose ground around the barn.... home made screw jacks on all 4 corners to take weight off tires and keep it steady...

.... and painted OD.

I think I have some small surplus reduction gear box....offset 90 degrees..... 20 to 1 ..? not sure if they are worm drive... will need to search the barn....

Then after Grant finds them and hides them again....he will ask me how much is it worth to tell me were it is......



Stuart... I usually get dreams/visions of what is coming up for sale at PA..... and while at it why just make one..... taking orders.... would you like fries with that sir!!!!

Boob

[Paul Singleton]

If you are not planning on doing a lot of restorations you could probably do this type.

[maple_leaf_eh]

You'd need some pretty tall stools to sit around that picnic table.

[Stuart Fedak]

Originally Posted by maple_leaf_eh

You'd need some pretty tall stools to sit around that picnic table.

Actually, that is just the sort of thing BooB uses for feeding the folks at his CMP BBQ. Of course it usually is the body of a HUP.......

Between the CMP; newer MIL vehicles; 6 pounders from the S&P museum; bonfires; bren carrier rides; BOOB's BBQ is the main event in the Ottawa Valley.

Cheers!
Stuart

[Bob Carriere]

....better show up.....

Boob

[Stuart Fedak]

Originally Posted by Stuart Fedak

BoB: I think Princess Auto must send you a personal notice of all upcoming sales......

Princess Auto:
3 Ton Long Stroke Hydraulic Jack
SKU 1010019
Extended length: 44 inches
Lift length: 19.5 inches
Retracted Length 24.5 inches
Regular price: $79.99
Sale price: $39.9

Looks like a good way to be able to adjust the lift point and centre the body to find the centre of gravity. One of the links I had at the start of the thread shows a good example of using an adjustable threaded crank to raise and lower the lift point. Well worth looking at the video.

Bob: What is the address and phone number of of the steel service centre you use in Ottawa? I have used Loucon Metal, but they are only open during the week, and are closed on the weekends.
http://www.louconmetal.com/
I would like to find someone that would cut my order to length, and have it ready for pick-up.

Cheers!
Stuart

Well Boob:
I picked up two of the 3 ton long stroke hydraulic jacks. I was hoping to get a shope crane, but they sold out the first day of the sale........ Now I will have to start working on a design for the Iltis rotisserie.

I was looking at some of the larger weld on chain gears. If I used the plasma cutter to enlarge the centre hole, I could weld it onto the pipe that will rotate, and then use one of the spring loaded pins from the trailer hardware section to make the stop. Thats the fun in Princess auto, looking around at all the bits, to see what you can make.

I will have to make an order to one of the local steel service centres for steel tubing. The other thing will be keeping an eye out for heavy duty casters. If you dream of any coming on sale at PA, let me know........

Cheers!
Stuart

[Bob Carriere]

Hi Stuart

Let consider getting together to draw a draft design first.....

You steel stock maybe cheaper if you purchase full lenghts...... 20 or 22 feet and cut to size based on design plans... I have the dry cut off wheel... mig welder and covered place to work........

Design will reflect actual dimensions of your jacks......

Prefab sprocket will give good flexibility....

Have you looked at the worm drive of certain HD boat trailer winches at PA....?

Consider using a rear axle hub bearings instead of dry pipes for turning/support points..... one of the models you referred to has that feature.

Wheels should be selected with regards to the ground surface.... the roughest surface will need larger casters...also overall weight....

I usually make use of Valdais fabrication off Innes in town.....but only for when I need some precision bending on his large press.....

For basic stock I believe Bourdeau Steel just outside Embrun near Vars is hard to beat pricewise...... he deals with farmer who build thier own stuff and can give sound advice...free !!!! I can pick up full lenght with my trailer..... it is usually cheaper to cut your own as they have to charge the handling time to someone...... but that is your call.

If you were considering modifying the shop crane for the rotisserie you may be happy that you missed out and built your own....

Casters of various sizes will be available on a rotational basis this Spring at PA.... again size to be discussed.... and also caution on the caster wheels... some are nice... but if left outside in the WInter.... solid steel is better btu larger ones are more expensive.......freezing water will shatter the rubber/plastic tires on the casters..... ask how I know.....

Have rough idea of what HxWxL you will need.... and we can chat..... I will bring a flip chart....

BooB

[Stuart Fedak]

Originally Posted by Bob Carriere

Hi Stuart

Let consider getting together to draw a draft design first.....

You steel stock maybe cheaper if you purchase full lenghts...... 20 or 22 feet and cut to size based on design plans... I have the dry cut off wheel... mig welder and covered place to work........

Design will reflect actual dimensions of your jacks......

Prefab sprocket will give good flexibility....

Have you looked at the worm drive of certain HD boat trailer winches at PA....?

Consider using a rear axle hub bearings instead of dry pipes for turning/support points..... one of the models you referred to has that feature.

Wheels should be selected with regards to the ground surface.... the roughest surface will need larger casters...also overall weight....

I usually make use of Valdais fabrication off Innes in town.....but only for when I need some precision bending on his large press.....

For basic stock I believe Bourdeau Steel just outside Embrun near Vars is hard to beat pricewise...... he deals with farmer who build thier own stuff and can give sound advice...free !!!! I can pick up full lenght with my trailer..... it is usually cheaper to cut your own as they have to charge the handling time to someone...... but that is your call.

If you were considering modifying the shop crane for the rotisserie you may be happy that you missed out and built your own....

Casters of various sizes will be available on a rotational basis this Spring at PA.... again size to be discussed.... and also caution on the caster wheels... some are nice... but if left outside in the WInter.... solid steel is better btu larger ones are more expensive.......freezing water will shatter the rubber/plastic tires on the casters..... ask how I know.....

Have rough idea of what HxWxL you will need.... and we can chat..... I will bring a flip chart....

BooB

Let consider getting together to draw a draft design first..... Sounds a plan

You steel stock maybe cheaper if you purchase full lenghts...... 20 or 22 feet and cut to size based on design plans... I have the dry cut off wheel... mig welder and covered place to work........ What more could I ask for...

Design will reflect actual dimensions of your jacks......

Prefab sprocket will give good flexibility.... I thought you would like that

Have you looked at the worm drive of certain HD boat trailer winches at PA....? I just looked on line. I will try to do that this week...

Consider using a rear axle hub bearings instead of dry pipes for turning/support points..... one of the models you referred to has that feature.
I will attach some pictures from Gord on just that suggestions

Wheels should be selected with regards to the ground surface.... the roughest surface will need larger casters...also overall weight....

I usually make use of Valdais fabrication off Innes in town.....but only for when I need some precision bending on his large press.....

For basic stock I believe Bourdeau Steel just outside Embrun near Vars is hard to beat pricewise...... he deals with farmer who build thier own stuff and can give sound advice...free !!!! I can pick up full lenght with my trailer..... it is usually cheaper to cut your own as they have to charge the handling time to someone...... but that is your call. That sounds like a good idea. I may stock up on some common sizes for my own shop

If you were considering modifying the shop crane for the rotisserie you may be happy that you missed out and built your own....

Casters of various sizes will be available on a rotational basis this Spring at PA.... again size to be discussed.... and also caution on the caster wheels... some are nice... but if left outside in the WInter.... solid steel is better btu larger ones are more expensive.......freezing water will shatter the rubber/plastic tires on the casters..... ask how I know.....

Have rough idea of what HxWxL you will need.... and we can chat..... I will bring a flip chart....

Great, I will start looking at more detailed requirements gathering.

The following comments are from Gord on a second unit he has....

Here are some pictures of a rotisserie that came with an MGB project car we got for my son. It appears to be home built and is a far better unit than my effort.

It appears too be built using a car axle with disc brake rotors. The stud holes in the hub are used for the rotation locaters and the hub/axle assembly provides the rotation axis. The automotive engineering provides a secure and reliable mechanism.

It is really quite simple design and I would expect would be a reasonable cost in salvage parts. If your going to build a unit to work on an Iltis and use the hydraulic jacks, this might be a very good unit design to copy.

I had no problem mounting an Iltis body on my rotisserie by using the loader tractor to set the body. This unit would benefit greatly by having the hydraulic cylinders to lift the mounting cross members after the body is attached. This might be a modification I should make too this unit since I have two long surplus single acting cylinders on hand.

I will post the additional pictures.


Cheers!
Stuart

[Stuart Fedak]

Here are some more pictures from Gord on the use of rear brake hubs...

Cheers!

Stuart

[Bob Carriere]

Using a front axle disc brake hub...... genius..... strong.... readily available in scrap yard.....

I like the idea on Gord's BBQ.... the vertical square tubing is drilled for a bolt/nut...... copy that with a jack to raise it to the next hole.... bolt in place and relieve pressure on jack....good safety measure.....

Let's keep looking for odd parts and new idea....

Anybody else wants to chim in and make suggestions now is the time.....

I am on a course all of next week but anytime towards the end of Feb start of March we need to squeeze some gray matter together and come up with a design.... that will dictate how much steel we need..... we may have to visit the steel shop to see what sizes and tickness are available and what size square tubing slips into what larger size...ID and OD.. for a proper tight fit.....

I favour designing mine with one set of small car wheels/tires at one end.... the other end with solid adjustable legs..... as I will move it like a trailer using the farm tractor.... also allows me to go over rough ground to store in the back field...... could have removable wheels if they get in the way.....jack it up install wheel and tow it away.

.... and this way for the BBQ I can pull it to the back field and BBQ a whole steer !!!!!


Hang in there... keep thinking.

Boob

[Gordon Yeo]

If you guys want any more photos or measurements let me know. I am sure the unit is home built and uses 2X2 steel tubing for the frames. The sliders that make the collars to carry the crossmembers are one size larger dimention. It really is a simlpe design and drilling a few holes is the most complicated part of it.

[Stuart Fedak]

Originally Posted by Gordon Yeo

If you guys want any more photos or measurements let me know. I am sure the unit is home built and uses 2X2 steel tubing for the frames. The sliders that make the collars to carry the crossmembers are one size larger dimention. It really is a simlpe design and drilling a few holes is the most complicated part of it.

Gord: Thanks for all the wonderful pictures and ideas. I think one the size you have, would work well for my needs for the Iltis. I will pehaps make it a bit bigger, for any future projects. Bobs needs are more heavy duty.

The use of the brake hub is wonderful. It is already robust and designed for the weight. Plus, should be readily available at a scrap yard. I was thinking of all the issues of using a pipe inside another pipe. It would need a collar at one end to keep the pipe from slipping out. Perhaps some grease fittings for keeping it lubricated, etc... a lot of design requirements... but it is already done.

I will have at least three Iltis body tubs to work on, so it will save lots of time. I have tried moving and flipping the Iltis body on my own, and it is too much weight. That is why I was so interested in this project.

Bob: The start of March is good. I have some weekend shifts at the hospital coming up, so not much time. This will be a good project, and will yield a useful product that I am sure will get shared around the Ottawa Valley.

Cheers!
Stuart

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by Stuart Fedak

BoB: I think Princess Auto must send you a personal notice of all upcoming sales

...

Cheers!
Stuart

Anyone can sign up for their sale catalogues and get three or four days jump on the rest of the crowd.